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	<title>Comments on: (Research thread II) Deterministic way to find primes</title>
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	<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/09/research-thread-ii-deterministic-way-to-find-primes/</link>
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		<title>By: Mathematics, Science, and Blogs &#171; Combinatorics and more</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/09/research-thread-ii-deterministic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-1526</link>
		<dc:creator>Mathematics, Science, and Blogs &#171; Combinatorics and more</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 23:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=97#comment-1526</guid>
		<description>[...] skeptical and enthusiastic. (August 2009) polymath4 dedicated to finding primes deterministically was launched over the polymathblog. (Polymath4 was very active for several months. It led to some fruitful [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] skeptical and enthusiastic. (August 2009) polymath4 dedicated to finding primes deterministically was launched over the polymathblog. (Polymath4 was very active for several months. It led to some fruitful [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Four Derandomization Problems &#171; Combinatorics and more</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/09/research-thread-ii-deterministic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-1379</link>
		<dc:creator>Four Derandomization Problems &#171; Combinatorics and more</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 09:30:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=97#comment-1379</guid>
		<description>[...] Polymath4 is devoted to a question about derandomization: To find a deterministic polynomial time algorithm for finding a k-digit prime.  So I (belatedly) devote this post to derandomization and, in particular, the following four problems. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Polymath4 is devoted to a question about derandomization: To find a deterministic polynomial time algorithm for finding a k-digit prime.  So I (belatedly) devote this post to derandomization and, in particular, the following four problems. [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Polymath again &#171; What Is Research?</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/09/research-thread-ii-deterministic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-1050</link>
		<dc:creator>Polymath again &#171; What Is Research?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=97#comment-1050</guid>
		<description>[...] meantime, Terence Tao started a polymath blog here, where he initiated four discussion threads (1, 2, 3 and 4) on deterministic ways to find primes (I&#8217;m not quite sure how that&#8217;s [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] meantime, Terence Tao started a polymath blog here, where he initiated four discussion threads (1, 2, 3 and 4) on deterministic ways to find primes (I&#8217;m not quite sure how that&#8217;s [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gil</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/09/research-thread-ii-deterministic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-511</link>
		<dc:creator>Gil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 06:14:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=97#comment-511</guid>
		<description>Just a little comment regarding the factoring oracle/additive combinatorics approach. What we did was to look at an interval of length k^5 of k digits numbers; and to conjecture that some number in the interval has a large prime factor. (Where &quot;large&quot; can be a number with at least m digits for m= k/log k or even just m=k^{1/3} numbers.) 

A weaker conjecture that will be as fine for us is this: if we start with an interval of length k^5 and consider the set S of all m-digit or more factors (not necessarily primes) of all the numbers in the intervals; then there will be an m-digit prime factor for a number in S+S. 

In other words, we can allow several interations of the operations: &quot;taking sums&quot; and &quot;taking factors&quot;.

The razor is as bad to this idea as it was for the original one. But if we can somehow find a way around the razor, this extension can be helpful because the sum/product theorems suggest that you can do more if you allow more than one arithmetic operation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a little comment regarding the factoring oracle/additive combinatorics approach. What we did was to look at an interval of length k^5 of k digits numbers; and to conjecture that some number in the interval has a large prime factor. (Where &#8220;large&#8221; can be a number with at least m digits for m= k/log k or even just m=k^{1/3} numbers.) </p>
<p>A weaker conjecture that will be as fine for us is this: if we start with an interval of length k^5 and consider the set S of all m-digit or more factors (not necessarily primes) of all the numbers in the intervals; then there will be an m-digit prime factor for a number in S+S. </p>
<p>In other words, we can allow several interations of the operations: &#8220;taking sums&#8221; and &#8220;taking factors&#8221;.</p>
<p>The razor is as bad to this idea as it was for the original one. But if we can somehow find a way around the razor, this extension can be helpful because the sum/product theorems suggest that you can do more if you allow more than one arithmetic operation.</p>
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		<title>By: Polymath4 &#171; Euclidean Ramsey Theory</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/09/research-thread-ii-deterministic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-501</link>
		<dc:creator>Polymath4 &#171; Euclidean Ramsey Theory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 23:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=97#comment-501</guid>
		<description>[...]  http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/09/research-thread-ii-deterministic-way-to-find-primes/ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  <a href="http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/09/research-thread-ii-deterministic-way-to-find-primes/" rel="nofollow">http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/09/research-thread-ii-deterministic-way-to-find-primes/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gil Kalai</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/09/research-thread-ii-deterministic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-497</link>
		<dc:creator>Gil Kalai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 21:44:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=97#comment-497</guid>
		<description>Thanks! I suppose we can ask our pronlem abstractly for Beurling primes where we have cost 1 for finding the nth &quot;integer&quot;, testing &quot;primality&quot; and (perhaps) &quot;factoring&quot;. 

I remembered vagely a proof by Renyi to PNT which used very little about primes and it may be related to Beurling result. I also remember vaguely that even if you take every prime with probability 1/2, conjectures for primes beyond the PNT fails.
My question was in trying to suggest how to save additive NT methods against the razor.

The &quot;Liphshitz&quot; or &quot;no large gaps&quot;  condition looks very strong. Even if you delete m primes you create by the Chinese remainder theorem a gap of length m near their product. But our razor which was based on deleting all large primes involved in an interval of length k^3 (say) of k-digits integers amounts to creating unusually large gaps. So there is a (small) hope that some additive number theory methods (or other methods) can exploit somehow a &quot;no gaps&quot; condition or a &quot;no unusually large gaps&quot; condition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks! I suppose we can ask our pronlem abstractly for Beurling primes where we have cost 1 for finding the nth &#8220;integer&#8221;, testing &#8220;primality&#8221; and (perhaps) &#8220;factoring&#8221;. </p>
<p>I remembered vagely a proof by Renyi to PNT which used very little about primes and it may be related to Beurling result. I also remember vaguely that even if you take every prime with probability 1/2, conjectures for primes beyond the PNT fails.<br />
My question was in trying to suggest how to save additive NT methods against the razor.</p>
<p>The &#8220;Liphshitz&#8221; or &#8220;no large gaps&#8221;  condition looks very strong. Even if you delete m primes you create by the Chinese remainder theorem a gap of length m near their product. But our razor which was based on deleting all large primes involved in an interval of length k^3 (say) of k-digits integers amounts to creating unusually large gaps. So there is a (small) hope that some additive number theory methods (or other methods) can exploit somehow a &#8220;no gaps&#8221; condition or a &#8220;no unusually large gaps&#8221; condition.</p>
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		<title>By: Terence Tao</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/09/research-thread-ii-deterministic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-488</link>
		<dc:creator>Terence Tao</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 17:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=97#comment-488</guid>
		<description>As this thread is now quite full, I am opening a new research thread for this project at

http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/13/research-thread-iii-determinstic-way-to-find-primes/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As this thread is now quite full, I am opening a new research thread for this project at</p>
<p><a href="http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/13/research-thread-iii-determinstic-way-to-find-primes/" rel="nofollow">http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/13/research-thread-iii-determinstic-way-to-find-primes/</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: (Research Thread III) Determinstic way to find primes &#171; The polymath blog</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/09/research-thread-ii-deterministic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-487</link>
		<dc:creator>(Research Thread III) Determinstic way to find primes &#171; The polymath blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 17:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=97#comment-487</guid>
		<description>[...] finding primes, research &#8212; Terence Tao @ 5:10 pm Tags: polymath4  This is a continuation of Research Thread II of the &#8220;Finding primes&#8221; polymath project, which is now full.  It seems that we are [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] finding primes, research &#8212; Terence Tao @ 5:10 pm Tags: polymath4  This is a continuation of Research Thread II of the &#8220;Finding primes&#8221; polymath project, which is now full.  It seems that we are [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Terence Tao</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/09/research-thread-ii-deterministic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-486</link>
		<dc:creator>Terence Tao</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 16:41:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=97#comment-486</guid>
		<description>If one uses the &quot;base u&quot; approach then the fact that n is small is reflected in the fact that there are only a few digits in the base u expansion of n, which keeps the relevant dynamical system approximately &quot;polynomial&quot; of low degree.  If n is less than u^2, then one has a linear dynamical system not too dissimilar from the rotation by $latex \sqrt{2}$ example.  What this system tells us is that if $latex n &lt; u^2$, then there is an integer within $latex O(n/u)$ of n which has a factor near u, but this is trivial since having a factor near u is the same as having a factor near n/u.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If one uses the &#8220;base u&#8221; approach then the fact that n is small is reflected in the fact that there are only a few digits in the base u expansion of n, which keeps the relevant dynamical system approximately &#8220;polynomial&#8221; of low degree.  If n is less than u^2, then one has a linear dynamical system not too dissimilar from the rotation by <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%5Csqrt%7B2%7D&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='\sqrt{2}' title='\sqrt{2}' class='latex' /> example.  What this system tells us is that if <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=n+%3C+u%5E2&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='n &lt; u^2' title='n &lt; u^2' class='latex' />, then there is an integer within <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=O%28n%2Fu%29&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='O(n/u)' title='O(n/u)' class='latex' /> of n which has a factor near u, but this is trivial since having a factor near u is the same as having a factor near n/u.</p>
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		<title>By: Terence Tao</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/09/research-thread-ii-deterministic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-485</link>
		<dc:creator>Terence Tao</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 16:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It seems that the most relevant paper in this series for us is the first paper,

http://www.ams.org/mathscinet-getitem?mr=2218342

though my university does not have a subscription to this year of the journal.

The reviewer does however notes an elementary way to attain the square root bound here, or more precisely to show that given any u (not necessarily integer), there is an integer in $latex [u^2 - O(\sqrt{u}), u^2 + O(\sqrt{u})]$ with a factor in $latex [u-O(\sqrt{u}), u+O(\sqrt{u})]$.  Indeed, one lets $latex x$ be the first integer larger than u, thus $latex x^2 = u^2 + O(u)$; then one lets $latex y^2$ be the closest square number to $latex x^2-u^2$, thus $latex y = O(\sqrt{u})$ and $latex (x-y)(x+y) = u^2 + O(\sqrt{u})$, as claimed.  (Note that this improves upon the Gauss circle problem type argument I had in #7, where I needed an interval of size $latex O( u^{2/3} )$ or so.)

If one could somehow adapt this argument to primes instead of integers, we could attain the square root barrier without using RH.

In the above paper, apparently the square root barrier is broken assuming some strong exponential sum bound relating to the equidistribution of $latex \alpha n^2$ modulo 1 (this seems reminiscent of the dynamical systems approach).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that the most relevant paper in this series for us is the first paper,</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ams.org/mathscinet-getitem?mr=2218342" rel="nofollow">http://www.ams.org/mathscinet-getitem?mr=2218342</a></p>
<p>though my university does not have a subscription to this year of the journal.</p>
<p>The reviewer does however notes an elementary way to attain the square root bound here, or more precisely to show that given any u (not necessarily integer), there is an integer in <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%5Bu%5E2+-+O%28%5Csqrt%7Bu%7D%29%2C+u%5E2+%2B+O%28%5Csqrt%7Bu%7D%29%5D&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='[u^2 - O(\sqrt{u}), u^2 + O(\sqrt{u})]' title='[u^2 - O(\sqrt{u}), u^2 + O(\sqrt{u})]' class='latex' /> with a factor in <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%5Bu-O%28%5Csqrt%7Bu%7D%29%2C+u%2BO%28%5Csqrt%7Bu%7D%29%5D&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='[u-O(\sqrt{u}), u+O(\sqrt{u})]' title='[u-O(\sqrt{u}), u+O(\sqrt{u})]' class='latex' />.  Indeed, one lets <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=x&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='x' title='x' class='latex' /> be the first integer larger than u, thus <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=x%5E2+%3D+u%5E2+%2B+O%28u%29&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='x^2 = u^2 + O(u)' title='x^2 = u^2 + O(u)' class='latex' />; then one lets <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=y%5E2&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='y^2' title='y^2' class='latex' /> be the closest square number to <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=x%5E2-u%5E2&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='x^2-u^2' title='x^2-u^2' class='latex' />, thus <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=y+%3D+O%28%5Csqrt%7Bu%7D%29&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='y = O(\sqrt{u})' title='y = O(\sqrt{u})' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%28x-y%29%28x%2By%29+%3D+u%5E2+%2B+O%28%5Csqrt%7Bu%7D%29&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='(x-y)(x+y) = u^2 + O(\sqrt{u})' title='(x-y)(x+y) = u^2 + O(\sqrt{u})' class='latex' />, as claimed.  (Note that this improves upon the Gauss circle problem type argument I had in #7, where I needed an interval of size <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=O%28+u%5E%7B2%2F3%7D+%29&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='O( u^{2/3} )' title='O( u^{2/3} )' class='latex' /> or so.)</p>
<p>If one could somehow adapt this argument to primes instead of integers, we could attain the square root barrier without using RH.</p>
<p>In the above paper, apparently the square root barrier is broken assuming some strong exponential sum bound relating to the equidistribution of <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%5Calpha+n%5E2&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=000000&#038;s=0' alt='\alpha n^2' title='\alpha n^2' class='latex' /> modulo 1 (this seems reminiscent of the dynamical systems approach).</p>
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