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	<title>Comments on: (Research Thread IV) Determinstic way to find primes</title>
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		<title>By: Lincidoro</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/28/research-thread-iv-determinstic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-3302</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lincidoro]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 22:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=115#comment-3302</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[1 мар 2011  Коль скоро вы крыться придерживаться годной вам диеты в пользу кого ума, ваш ум довольно заниматься почти максимальной отдачей вплоть до
Диетическое и лечебное питание при различных заболеваниях.
диеты, как похудеть, упражнения, фитнес, красивая фигура, гадания.
27 май 2011  Диета Пьера Дюкана во Франции неимоверно популярна. Но не все так розово,  Диеты бывают разные – гипокалорийные, белковые и… счастливые.
Диетическое питание. Средства для похудения, диеты, похудеть быстро. Советы и рекомендации.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1 мар 2011  Коль скоро вы крыться придерживаться годной вам диеты в пользу кого ума, ваш ум довольно заниматься почти максимальной отдачей вплоть до<br />
Диетическое и лечебное питание при различных заболеваниях.<br />
диеты, как похудеть, упражнения, фитнес, красивая фигура, гадания.<br />
27 май 2011  Диета Пьера Дюкана во Франции неимоверно популярна. Но не все так розово,  Диеты бывают разные – гипокалорийные, белковые и… счастливые.<br />
Диетическое питание. Средства для похудения, диеты, похудеть быстро. Советы и рекомендации.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Warren D Smith (PhD)</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/28/research-thread-iv-determinstic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-3126</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren D Smith (PhD)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 May 2011 23:48:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=115#comment-3126</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hate to be boring about it, but you can attain deterministic time bound O(10^(k/2 + o(1))), the same time
bound you got, by simply sieving an array that many bits long.   You need the RH to assure that any this-size region will contain a prime, however.  All multiples of numbers up to this bound, are removed by the sieving.

Well, you probably already thought of that.  (I don&#039;t know how to use this blog thing to tell what happened before. Where&#039;s the how-to guide?) Sure is low-tech.

As another comment, I&#039;m not sure this whole topic has much interest.  To explain, we have easy randomized algorithms that will do the job in polynomial(k) time with high probability.   These algorithms are very very very simple.  Any deterministic algorithm you invent is almost certainly, by comparison, going to be utterly worthless, way more complicated and slower.   That&#039;s the first problem.   The second problem is, suppose I derandomize that algorithm by simply using certain deterministic pseudorandom number generators (I have some which I can prove, starting from a random seed, will pass every possible polytime statistical test provided that ANY generator exists that does... furthermore I can prove they are nearly as immune to randomness tests as it is possible for any algorithm to be...).  So, in that case, I&#039;ve solved your problem OR there exists no such pseudo-random number generator.  So in the event I haven&#039;t solved your problem, a way, way, way more important and profound result is at hand.  And very weak randomness properties are required in your application.

So all this suggests to me, that this was a fairly stupid problem to choose.
 
Mind you, I won&#039;t say it&#039;s totally stupid since I admit it would feel interesting to know the answer to your problem.  It&#039;s kind of like the AKS primality test was allegedly a great development... and yes it was in some sense... but from a practical point of view, it is a total waste of time.

My final comment is: are you aware of the following papers?
Janos Pintz, William L. Steiger, Endre Szemeredi: Two Infinite Sets of Primes with Fast Primality Tests,
 STOC 1988 pp 504-509, journal version is
Maths of Computation  Vol. 53, No. 187, July 1989 pp.399-406.

Eric Bach: How to Generate Factored Random Numbers, SIAM J. Computing 17 (1988) pp.179-193

These were done pre-AKS, but are better than AKS for many purposes of your ilk.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hate to be boring about it, but you can attain deterministic time bound O(10^(k/2 + o(1))), the same time<br />
bound you got, by simply sieving an array that many bits long.   You need the RH to assure that any this-size region will contain a prime, however.  All multiples of numbers up to this bound, are removed by the sieving.</p>
<p>Well, you probably already thought of that.  (I don&#8217;t know how to use this blog thing to tell what happened before. Where&#8217;s the how-to guide?) Sure is low-tech.</p>
<p>As another comment, I&#8217;m not sure this whole topic has much interest.  To explain, we have easy randomized algorithms that will do the job in polynomial(k) time with high probability.   These algorithms are very very very simple.  Any deterministic algorithm you invent is almost certainly, by comparison, going to be utterly worthless, way more complicated and slower.   That&#8217;s the first problem.   The second problem is, suppose I derandomize that algorithm by simply using certain deterministic pseudorandom number generators (I have some which I can prove, starting from a random seed, will pass every possible polytime statistical test provided that ANY generator exists that does&#8230; furthermore I can prove they are nearly as immune to randomness tests as it is possible for any algorithm to be&#8230;).  So, in that case, I&#8217;ve solved your problem OR there exists no such pseudo-random number generator.  So in the event I haven&#8217;t solved your problem, a way, way, way more important and profound result is at hand.  And very weak randomness properties are required in your application.</p>
<p>So all this suggests to me, that this was a fairly stupid problem to choose.</p>
<p>Mind you, I won&#8217;t say it&#8217;s totally stupid since I admit it would feel interesting to know the answer to your problem.  It&#8217;s kind of like the AKS primality test was allegedly a great development&#8230; and yes it was in some sense&#8230; but from a practical point of view, it is a total waste of time.</p>
<p>My final comment is: are you aware of the following papers?<br />
Janos Pintz, William L. Steiger, Endre Szemeredi: Two Infinite Sets of Primes with Fast Primality Tests,<br />
 STOC 1988 pp 504-509, journal version is<br />
Maths of Computation  Vol. 53, No. 187, July 1989 pp.399-406.</p>
<p>Eric Bach: How to Generate Factored Random Numbers, SIAM J. Computing 17 (1988) pp.179-193</p>
<p>These were done pre-AKS, but are better than AKS for many purposes of your ilk.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Polymath again &#171; What Is Research?</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/28/research-thread-iv-determinstic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-1044</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Polymath again &#171; What Is Research?]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=115#comment-1044</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Terence Tao started a polymath blog here, where he initiated four discussion threads (1, 2, 3 and 4) on deterministic ways to find primes (I&#8217;m not quite sure how that&#8217;s proceeding &#8212; [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Terence Tao started a polymath blog here, where he initiated four discussion threads (1, 2, 3 and 4) on deterministic ways to find primes (I&#8217;m not quite sure how that&#8217;s proceeding &#8212; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kristal Cantwell</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/28/research-thread-iv-determinstic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-1042</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristal Cantwell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 19:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=115#comment-1042</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That should be BQP and FBQP in the above instead of BPQ and FBPQ. Also the problem is in BQP rather than is is BQP. Sorry about these errors.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That should be BQP and FBQP in the above instead of BPQ and FBPQ. Also the problem is in BQP rather than is is BQP. Sorry about these errors.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Kristal Cantwell</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/28/research-thread-iv-determinstic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-1041</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristal Cantwell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 19:14:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=115#comment-1041</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You are right BPQ is for decisions. There is FBPQ see

http://qwiki.stanford.edu/wiki/Complexity_Zoo:F

I think there should also be a FBPP but I can&#039;t find it.
I think the problem is is FBPQ. We are given 10^k to 10^k+1
with a quantum number computer we have random numbers and can guess randomly each guess and test is polynomial in k
and and has probability of success 1/k so if we repeat this test 2k times we should have probabliity of success  1-e^2
and we should have the problem in FBQP. This looks better than any search involving z^.49 because I think z is exponential in k. If FBPP were defined as FBPQ then something similar should show the problem is in FBPP.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are right BPQ is for decisions. There is FBPQ see</p>
<p><a href="http://qwiki.stanford.edu/wiki/Complexity_Zoo:F" rel="nofollow">http://qwiki.stanford.edu/wiki/Complexity_Zoo:F</a></p>
<p>I think there should also be a FBPP but I can&#8217;t find it.<br />
I think the problem is is FBPQ. We are given 10^k to 10^k+1<br />
with a quantum number computer we have random numbers and can guess randomly each guess and test is polynomial in k<br />
and and has probability of success 1/k so if we repeat this test 2k times we should have probabliity of success  1-e^2<br />
and we should have the problem in FBQP. This looks better than any search involving z^.49 because I think z is exponential in k. If FBPP were defined as FBPQ then something similar should show the problem is in FBPP.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ernie Croot</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/28/research-thread-iv-determinstic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-1032</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ernie Croot]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 03:31:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=115#comment-1032</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I finally got around to looking up the fast multiplication algorithms in Knuth&#039;s book ``Semi-numerical Algorithms&#039;&#039; that I had talked about before, and it turns out that one of these is called ``Karatsuba&#039;s identity&#039;&#039;, which is somewhat similar to Strassen&#039;s identity, only it doesn&#039;t involve matrices is a lot easier to use.  In fact, I think there is a chance of using it in combination with FFTs to get a quick-running algorithm to evaluate our prime generating function.  Here is the idea:  Suppose that we can write

$latex f(X)\ =\ \sum_{i=1}^k \alpha_i(X) \beta_i(X)$,

where $latex f(X)$ is our generating function for the primes in $latex [z,z+z^{0.501}]$, and where the $latex \alpha_i$ and $latex \beta_i$ are polynomials such that the total number of terms among all of them is at most, say, $latex z^{0.49}$ or so.  What we would like to do is quickly evaluate $latex f(X)$ at, say, 

$latex X=1,x,x^2,...,x^N \pmod{2,g(x)}\ \ \ \ (*)$, 

where $latex N \sim z^{0.49}$ or so; and, we&#039;d like to be able to do this using a lot fewer than $latex z^{1/2}$ operations.  

Now let $latex D$ be some integer (that we choose later), and write each of the $latex \alpha_i(X)$ as 

$latex \alpha_i(X)\ =\ \alpha_{i,1}(X) + X^D \alpha_{i,2}(X)$,

where 

$latex \alpha_{i,1}(X)\ =\ \sum_{j \leq D-1} c_j X^j,$

and

$latex X^D \alpha_{i,2}(X)\ =\ \sum_{j \geq D} c_j X^j$,

where $latex c_0,c_1,...$ are the coefficients of $latex \alpha_i(X)$; and, write $latex \beta_i(X)$ similarly -- that is,

$latex \beta_i(X)\ =\ \beta_{i,1}(X) + X^D \beta_{i,2}(X).$

Ideally, we want $latex D$ to be such that each $latex \alpha_{i,1}(X), \alpha_{i,2}(X)$ have about half as many terms as $latex \alpha_i(X)$, and we want the analogous to hold for the $latex \beta_i(X)$ -- of course, in order to guarantee that this is possible, we would have to be able to select that decomposition for $latex f(X)$ above carefully.  

Now, assuming that we can find such a $latex D$ (and have such a decomposition for $latex f(X)$), we then observe the following, which is basically Karatsuba&#039;s identity:

$latex f(X)\ =\  \Sigma_1 + \Sigma_2 + \Sigma_3$,

where

$latex \Sigma_1\ =\ (1 - X^D) \sum_{i=1}^k \alpha_{i,1}(X)\beta_{i,1}(X)$,

$latex \Sigma_2\ =\ (X^{2D} - X^D) \sum_{i=1}^k \alpha_{i,2}(X) \beta_{i,2}(X)$,

$latex \Sigma_3\ =\ X^D \sum_{i=1}^k (\alpha_{i,1}(X) + \alpha_{i,2}(X))(\beta_{i,1}(X) + \beta_{i,2}(X))$.

The point here is that we have replaced on sum of products of two polynomials (the $latex \alpha_i(X)\beta_i(X)$) with three sums of such products, but where each polynomial has degree about half what we had before -- each of these sums (forgetting the factors $latex (1-X^D)$ and so on) involves products of two polynomials of degree at most $latex D$.  The idea is then to iterate the above process, starting with *these* sums, and then replacing each by three sums of products of polynomials each of degree $latex D/2$, and so on.  Eventually, we get down to sums of products of polynomials that we can just expand out by trivial methods, as they will have few terms to begin with, and then apply FFTs to evaluate them at the points (*) above.

Unfortunately, it is not always the case that the new polynomials produced at each iteration have fewer terms, since the $latex \alpha_i$ and $latex \beta_i$ may have been sparse to begin with (in fact, likely are).  But what we can hope for is that the initial polynomials $latex \alpha_i$ and $latex \beta_i$ can be chosen carefully so that after a small number of iterations, we get ``mixing&#039;&#039; -- that is, the number of terms in, say, each of the polynomials

$latex (\alpha_{i,1}(X) + \alpha_{i,2}(X))\ \ and\ \ (\beta_{i,1}(X) + \beta_{i,2}(X))$

is not much bigger than the number in each of 

$latex \alpha_{i,1}(X), \alpha_{i,2}(X), \beta_{i,1}(X), \beta_{i,2}(X)$.

In other words, we will want that sufficiently many iterations into the above process we have that, say, $latex \alpha_{i,1}(X)$ shares many terms in common with $latex \alpha_{i,2}(X)$, and the same for the $latex \beta_{i,j}(X)$&#039;s.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I finally got around to looking up the fast multiplication algorithms in Knuth&#8217;s book &#8220;Semi-numerical Algorithms&#8221; that I had talked about before, and it turns out that one of these is called &#8220;Karatsuba&#8217;s identity&#8221;, which is somewhat similar to Strassen&#8217;s identity, only it doesn&#8217;t involve matrices is a lot easier to use.  In fact, I think there is a chance of using it in combination with FFTs to get a quick-running algorithm to evaluate our prime generating function.  Here is the idea:  Suppose that we can write</p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=f%28X%29%5C+%3D%5C+%5Csum_%7Bi%3D1%7D%5Ek+%5Calpha_i%28X%29+%5Cbeta_i%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='f(X)&#92; =&#92; &#92;sum_{i=1}^k &#92;alpha_i(X) &#92;beta_i(X)' title='f(X)&#92; =&#92; &#92;sum_{i=1}^k &#92;alpha_i(X) &#92;beta_i(X)' class='latex' />,</p>
<p>where <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=f%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='f(X)' title='f(X)' class='latex' /> is our generating function for the primes in <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Bz%2Cz%2Bz%5E%7B0.501%7D%5D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='[z,z+z^{0.501}]' title='[z,z+z^{0.501}]' class='latex' />, and where the <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Calpha_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;alpha_i' title='&#92;alpha_i' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cbeta_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;beta_i' title='&#92;beta_i' class='latex' /> are polynomials such that the total number of terms among all of them is at most, say, <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=z%5E%7B0.49%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='z^{0.49}' title='z^{0.49}' class='latex' /> or so.  What we would like to do is quickly evaluate <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=f%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='f(X)' title='f(X)' class='latex' /> at, say, </p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=X%3D1%2Cx%2Cx%5E2%2C...%2Cx%5EN+%5Cpmod%7B2%2Cg%28x%29%7D%5C+%5C+%5C+%5C+%28%2A%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='X=1,x,x^2,...,x^N &#92;pmod{2,g(x)}&#92; &#92; &#92; &#92; (*)' title='X=1,x,x^2,...,x^N &#92;pmod{2,g(x)}&#92; &#92; &#92; &#92; (*)' class='latex' />, </p>
<p>where <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=N+%5Csim+z%5E%7B0.49%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='N &#92;sim z^{0.49}' title='N &#92;sim z^{0.49}' class='latex' /> or so; and, we&#8217;d like to be able to do this using a lot fewer than <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=z%5E%7B1%2F2%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='z^{1/2}' title='z^{1/2}' class='latex' /> operations.  </p>
<p>Now let <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='D' title='D' class='latex' /> be some integer (that we choose later), and write each of the <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Calpha_i%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;alpha_i(X)' title='&#92;alpha_i(X)' class='latex' /> as </p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Calpha_i%28X%29%5C+%3D%5C+%5Calpha_%7Bi%2C1%7D%28X%29+%2B+X%5ED+%5Calpha_%7Bi%2C2%7D%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;alpha_i(X)&#92; =&#92; &#92;alpha_{i,1}(X) + X^D &#92;alpha_{i,2}(X)' title='&#92;alpha_i(X)&#92; =&#92; &#92;alpha_{i,1}(X) + X^D &#92;alpha_{i,2}(X)' class='latex' />,</p>
<p>where </p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Calpha_%7Bi%2C1%7D%28X%29%5C+%3D%5C+%5Csum_%7Bj+%5Cleq+D-1%7D+c_j+X%5Ej%2C&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;alpha_{i,1}(X)&#92; =&#92; &#92;sum_{j &#92;leq D-1} c_j X^j,' title='&#92;alpha_{i,1}(X)&#92; =&#92; &#92;sum_{j &#92;leq D-1} c_j X^j,' class='latex' /></p>
<p>and</p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=X%5ED+%5Calpha_%7Bi%2C2%7D%28X%29%5C+%3D%5C+%5Csum_%7Bj+%5Cgeq+D%7D+c_j+X%5Ej&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='X^D &#92;alpha_{i,2}(X)&#92; =&#92; &#92;sum_{j &#92;geq D} c_j X^j' title='X^D &#92;alpha_{i,2}(X)&#92; =&#92; &#92;sum_{j &#92;geq D} c_j X^j' class='latex' />,</p>
<p>where <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=c_0%2Cc_1%2C...&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='c_0,c_1,...' title='c_0,c_1,...' class='latex' /> are the coefficients of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Calpha_i%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;alpha_i(X)' title='&#92;alpha_i(X)' class='latex' />; and, write <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cbeta_i%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;beta_i(X)' title='&#92;beta_i(X)' class='latex' /> similarly &#8212; that is,</p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cbeta_i%28X%29%5C+%3D%5C+%5Cbeta_%7Bi%2C1%7D%28X%29+%2B+X%5ED+%5Cbeta_%7Bi%2C2%7D%28X%29.&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;beta_i(X)&#92; =&#92; &#92;beta_{i,1}(X) + X^D &#92;beta_{i,2}(X).' title='&#92;beta_i(X)&#92; =&#92; &#92;beta_{i,1}(X) + X^D &#92;beta_{i,2}(X).' class='latex' /></p>
<p>Ideally, we want <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='D' title='D' class='latex' /> to be such that each <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Calpha_%7Bi%2C1%7D%28X%29%2C+%5Calpha_%7Bi%2C2%7D%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;alpha_{i,1}(X), &#92;alpha_{i,2}(X)' title='&#92;alpha_{i,1}(X), &#92;alpha_{i,2}(X)' class='latex' /> have about half as many terms as <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Calpha_i%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;alpha_i(X)' title='&#92;alpha_i(X)' class='latex' />, and we want the analogous to hold for the <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cbeta_i%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;beta_i(X)' title='&#92;beta_i(X)' class='latex' /> &#8212; of course, in order to guarantee that this is possible, we would have to be able to select that decomposition for <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=f%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='f(X)' title='f(X)' class='latex' /> above carefully.  </p>
<p>Now, assuming that we can find such a <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='D' title='D' class='latex' /> (and have such a decomposition for <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=f%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='f(X)' title='f(X)' class='latex' />), we then observe the following, which is basically Karatsuba&#8217;s identity:</p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=f%28X%29%5C+%3D%5C++%5CSigma_1+%2B+%5CSigma_2+%2B+%5CSigma_3&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='f(X)&#92; =&#92;  &#92;Sigma_1 + &#92;Sigma_2 + &#92;Sigma_3' title='f(X)&#92; =&#92;  &#92;Sigma_1 + &#92;Sigma_2 + &#92;Sigma_3' class='latex' />,</p>
<p>where</p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5CSigma_1%5C+%3D%5C+%281+-+X%5ED%29+%5Csum_%7Bi%3D1%7D%5Ek+%5Calpha_%7Bi%2C1%7D%28X%29%5Cbeta_%7Bi%2C1%7D%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;Sigma_1&#92; =&#92; (1 - X^D) &#92;sum_{i=1}^k &#92;alpha_{i,1}(X)&#92;beta_{i,1}(X)' title='&#92;Sigma_1&#92; =&#92; (1 - X^D) &#92;sum_{i=1}^k &#92;alpha_{i,1}(X)&#92;beta_{i,1}(X)' class='latex' />,</p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5CSigma_2%5C+%3D%5C+%28X%5E%7B2D%7D+-+X%5ED%29+%5Csum_%7Bi%3D1%7D%5Ek+%5Calpha_%7Bi%2C2%7D%28X%29+%5Cbeta_%7Bi%2C2%7D%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;Sigma_2&#92; =&#92; (X^{2D} - X^D) &#92;sum_{i=1}^k &#92;alpha_{i,2}(X) &#92;beta_{i,2}(X)' title='&#92;Sigma_2&#92; =&#92; (X^{2D} - X^D) &#92;sum_{i=1}^k &#92;alpha_{i,2}(X) &#92;beta_{i,2}(X)' class='latex' />,</p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5CSigma_3%5C+%3D%5C+X%5ED+%5Csum_%7Bi%3D1%7D%5Ek+%28%5Calpha_%7Bi%2C1%7D%28X%29+%2B+%5Calpha_%7Bi%2C2%7D%28X%29%29%28%5Cbeta_%7Bi%2C1%7D%28X%29+%2B+%5Cbeta_%7Bi%2C2%7D%28X%29%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;Sigma_3&#92; =&#92; X^D &#92;sum_{i=1}^k (&#92;alpha_{i,1}(X) + &#92;alpha_{i,2}(X))(&#92;beta_{i,1}(X) + &#92;beta_{i,2}(X))' title='&#92;Sigma_3&#92; =&#92; X^D &#92;sum_{i=1}^k (&#92;alpha_{i,1}(X) + &#92;alpha_{i,2}(X))(&#92;beta_{i,1}(X) + &#92;beta_{i,2}(X))' class='latex' />.</p>
<p>The point here is that we have replaced on sum of products of two polynomials (the <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Calpha_i%28X%29%5Cbeta_i%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;alpha_i(X)&#92;beta_i(X)' title='&#92;alpha_i(X)&#92;beta_i(X)' class='latex' />) with three sums of such products, but where each polynomial has degree about half what we had before &#8212; each of these sums (forgetting the factors <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%281-X%5ED%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='(1-X^D)' title='(1-X^D)' class='latex' /> and so on) involves products of two polynomials of degree at most <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='D' title='D' class='latex' />.  The idea is then to iterate the above process, starting with *these* sums, and then replacing each by three sums of products of polynomials each of degree <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=D%2F2&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='D/2' title='D/2' class='latex' />, and so on.  Eventually, we get down to sums of products of polynomials that we can just expand out by trivial methods, as they will have few terms to begin with, and then apply FFTs to evaluate them at the points (*) above.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, it is not always the case that the new polynomials produced at each iteration have fewer terms, since the <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Calpha_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;alpha_i' title='&#92;alpha_i' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cbeta_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;beta_i' title='&#92;beta_i' class='latex' /> may have been sparse to begin with (in fact, likely are).  But what we can hope for is that the initial polynomials <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Calpha_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;alpha_i' title='&#92;alpha_i' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cbeta_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;beta_i' title='&#92;beta_i' class='latex' /> can be chosen carefully so that after a small number of iterations, we get &#8220;mixing&#8221; &#8212; that is, the number of terms in, say, each of the polynomials</p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%28%5Calpha_%7Bi%2C1%7D%28X%29+%2B+%5Calpha_%7Bi%2C2%7D%28X%29%29%5C+%5C+and%5C+%5C+%28%5Cbeta_%7Bi%2C1%7D%28X%29+%2B+%5Cbeta_%7Bi%2C2%7D%28X%29%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='(&#92;alpha_{i,1}(X) + &#92;alpha_{i,2}(X))&#92; &#92; and&#92; &#92; (&#92;beta_{i,1}(X) + &#92;beta_{i,2}(X))' title='(&#92;alpha_{i,1}(X) + &#92;alpha_{i,2}(X))&#92; &#92; and&#92; &#92; (&#92;beta_{i,1}(X) + &#92;beta_{i,2}(X))' class='latex' /></p>
<p>is not much bigger than the number in each of </p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Calpha_%7Bi%2C1%7D%28X%29%2C+%5Calpha_%7Bi%2C2%7D%28X%29%2C+%5Cbeta_%7Bi%2C1%7D%28X%29%2C+%5Cbeta_%7Bi%2C2%7D%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;alpha_{i,1}(X), &#92;alpha_{i,2}(X), &#92;beta_{i,1}(X), &#92;beta_{i,2}(X)' title='&#92;alpha_{i,1}(X), &#92;alpha_{i,2}(X), &#92;beta_{i,1}(X), &#92;beta_{i,2}(X)' class='latex' />.</p>
<p>In other words, we will want that sufficiently many iterations into the above process we have that, say, <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Calpha_%7Bi%2C1%7D%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;alpha_{i,1}(X)' title='&#92;alpha_{i,1}(X)' class='latex' /> shares many terms in common with <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Calpha_%7Bi%2C2%7D%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;alpha_{i,2}(X)' title='&#92;alpha_{i,2}(X)' class='latex' />, and the same for the <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cbeta_%7Bi%2Cj%7D%28X%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;beta_{i,j}(X)' title='&#92;beta_{i,j}(X)' class='latex' />&#8216;s.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Terence Tao</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/28/research-thread-iv-determinstic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-1024</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Terence Tao]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:40:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=115#comment-1024</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kristal, complexity classes such as P, BPP, NP, BQP, etc. apply only to decision problems (&quot;Yes/No&quot; questions), not search problems (&quot;Find an X&quot;).  Finding a prime is a search problem, not a decision problem, and so does not lie in P, BPP, etc.

A relevant decision problem, though, is &quot;Does there exist a prime in the interval [a,b]?&quot;.  If one can solve this decision problem quickly, one can solve the search problem quickly, by a binary search starting from [x,2x].

It is still open whether this decision problem is in BPP.  The problem is that the density of primes in [a,b] could be very low, and so it is not clear even after polylogarithmically many searches that one has a 2/3 chance or more of finding a prime (the needle in the haystack problem).  But it seems from Ernie&#039;s work that this problem is at least in BP-$latex z^{0.49}$ when $latex a,b = O(z)$, by which I mean that there is a probabilistic algorithm which after $latex O(z^{0.49})$ work will correctly determine whether there is a prime or not in [a,b] with a failure probability of at most 1/3 in either case.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kristal, complexity classes such as P, BPP, NP, BQP, etc. apply only to decision problems (&#8220;Yes/No&#8221; questions), not search problems (&#8220;Find an X&#8221;).  Finding a prime is a search problem, not a decision problem, and so does not lie in P, BPP, etc.</p>
<p>A relevant decision problem, though, is &#8220;Does there exist a prime in the interval [a,b]?&#8221;.  If one can solve this decision problem quickly, one can solve the search problem quickly, by a binary search starting from [x,2x].</p>
<p>It is still open whether this decision problem is in BPP.  The problem is that the density of primes in [a,b] could be very low, and so it is not clear even after polylogarithmically many searches that one has a 2/3 chance or more of finding a prime (the needle in the haystack problem).  But it seems from Ernie&#8217;s work that this problem is at least in BP-<img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=z%5E%7B0.49%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='z^{0.49}' title='z^{0.49}' class='latex' /> when <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=a%2Cb+%3D+O%28z%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='a,b = O(z)' title='a,b = O(z)' class='latex' />, by which I mean that there is a probabilistic algorithm which after <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=O%28z%5E%7B0.49%7D%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='O(z^{0.49})' title='O(z^{0.49})' class='latex' /> work will correctly determine whether there is a prime or not in [a,b] with a failure probability of at most 1/3 in either case.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kristal Cantwell</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/28/research-thread-iv-determinstic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-1023</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kristal Cantwell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 16:56:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=115#comment-1023</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If the a quantum computer has a random number generator and can simulate a turing machine couldn&#039;t it solve BQP problems?

In fact from 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BQP

BQP contains BPP

Furthermore since we have a source of randomness in BPP and the density is 1/log b for primes then using the random source to get a random candidate will give a number that has 1/log b probability of being prime repeating this 2log b times will give success with probability 1-(1-1/log b)^(2log b) or roughly 1-(e^-2) which means probability of failure is less than 1/3. I may be missing seeing something but it looks like the problem is in both BQP and BPP.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the a quantum computer has a random number generator and can simulate a turing machine couldn&#8217;t it solve BQP problems?</p>
<p>In fact from </p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BQP" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BQP</a></p>
<p>BQP contains BPP</p>
<p>Furthermore since we have a source of randomness in BPP and the density is 1/log b for primes then using the random source to get a random candidate will give a number that has 1/log b probability of being prime repeating this 2log b times will give success with probability 1-(1-1/log b)^(2log b) or roughly 1-(e^-2) which means probability of failure is less than 1/3. I may be missing seeing something but it looks like the problem is in both BQP and BPP.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Terence Tao</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/28/research-thread-iv-determinstic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-1021</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Terence Tao]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 06:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=115#comment-1021</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One observation following your comment: suppose in the interval [a,b] there were exactly two primes, and they differed by a multiple of $latex 2^m$ for some m.  Then $latex \sum_{a \leq p \leq b} x^p \mod 2,g(x)$ would vanish for any g of degree at most m.  So it does seem that we need g of moderately large degree (larger than $latex \log_2 z^{0.51}$) in order to deterministically detect primes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One observation following your comment: suppose in the interval [a,b] there were exactly two primes, and they differed by a multiple of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=2%5Em&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='2^m' title='2^m' class='latex' /> for some m.  Then <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Csum_%7Ba+%5Cleq+p+%5Cleq+b%7D+x%5Ep+%5Cmod+2%2Cg%28x%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;sum_{a &#92;leq p &#92;leq b} x^p &#92;mod 2,g(x)' title='&#92;sum_{a &#92;leq p &#92;leq b} x^p &#92;mod 2,g(x)' class='latex' /> would vanish for any g of degree at most m.  So it does seem that we need g of moderately large degree (larger than <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Clog_2+z%5E%7B0.51%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;log_2 z^{0.51}' title='&#92;log_2 z^{0.51}' class='latex' />) in order to deterministically detect primes.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Terence Tao</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2009/08/28/research-thread-iv-determinstic-way-to-find-primes/#comment-1020</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Terence Tao]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 06:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=115#comment-1020</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It occurred to me that we might be able to show that the task of determining whether a prime lies in [a,b] could lie in BPP, at least.  (This is not a triviality; on the wiki page http://michaelnielsen.org/polymath1/index.php?title=Oracle_counterexample_to_finding_pseudoprimes , there is a reasonable case that one could concoct a set of pseudoprimes for which one could not solve this problem quickly even when P=BPP.)   The point is that testing polynomial identities over finite fields is in BPP, because such an identity either holds everywhere or fails for a large fraction of inputs, and so can be placed in BPP by random sampling.  And this whole approach is basically polynomial identity testing.

Actually, now that I think about it, we won&#039;t get BPP, but rather BP-$latex z^{0.49}$, which isn&#039;t nearly as impressive, but still non-trivial at least...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It occurred to me that we might be able to show that the task of determining whether a prime lies in [a,b] could lie in BPP, at least.  (This is not a triviality; on the wiki page <a href="http://michaelnielsen.org/polymath1/index.php?title=Oracle_counterexample_to_finding_pseudoprimes" rel="nofollow">http://michaelnielsen.org/polymath1/index.php?title=Oracle_counterexample_to_finding_pseudoprimes</a> , there is a reasonable case that one could concoct a set of pseudoprimes for which one could not solve this problem quickly even when P=BPP.)   The point is that testing polynomial identities over finite fields is in BPP, because such an identity either holds everywhere or fails for a large fraction of inputs, and so can be placed in BPP by random sampling.  And this whole approach is basically polynomial identity testing.</p>
<p>Actually, now that I think about it, we won&#8217;t get BPP, but rather BP-<img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=z%5E%7B0.49%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='z^{0.49}' title='z^{0.49}' class='latex' />, which isn&#8217;t nearly as impressive, but still non-trivial at least&#8230;</p>
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