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	<title>Comments on: Polymath7 research threads 3: the Hot Spots Conjecture</title>
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	<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2012/06/24/polymath7-research-threads-3-the-hot-spots-conjecture/</link>
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		<title>By: Polymath7 research threads 4: the Hot Spots Conjecture &#171; The polymath blog</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2012/06/24/polymath7-research-threads-3-the-hot-spots-conjecture/#comment-9831</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Polymath7 research threads 4: the Hot Spots Conjecture &#171; The polymath blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2012 19:29:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=300#comment-9831</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] time for another rollover of the  Polymath7 “Hot Spots” conjecture, as the previous research thread has again become [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] time for another rollover of the  Polymath7 “Hot Spots” conjecture, as the previous research thread has again become [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Terence Tao</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2012/06/24/polymath7-research-threads-3-the-hot-spots-conjecture/#comment-9830</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Terence Tao]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2012 19:29:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=300#comment-9830</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I started a new thread at http://polymathprojects.org/2012/09/10/polymath7-research-threads-4-the-hot-spots-conjecture/ as this one was getting quite long.  I also tried to summarise the current &quot;big picture&quot; as to our numerical strategy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I started a new thread at <a href="http://polymathprojects.org/2012/09/10/polymath7-research-threads-4-the-hot-spots-conjecture/" rel="nofollow">http://polymathprojects.org/2012/09/10/polymath7-research-threads-4-the-hot-spots-conjecture/</a> as this one was getting quite long.  I also tried to summarise the current &#8220;big picture&#8221; as to our numerical strategy.</p>
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		<title>By: nilimanigam</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2012/06/24/polymath7-research-threads-3-the-hot-spots-conjecture/#comment-9816</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nilimanigam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2012 15:20:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=300#comment-9816</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Reading through this discussion, I realized there&#039;s a missing piece of information.This may not address the concern about the location of the extreme value in a subtriangle via interpolation.

The mesh refinements are done in a shape-regular manner. So each triangle is split into 4 smaller triangles, by adding edges between midpoints of the edges. So all the degrees of freedom from the P2 element get used. 

Additionally, because the quadratic elements converge so fast, the mesh size h used for the P2 calculation was typically 8 times larger than that used for the P1 calculation (ie each triangle is subdivided into 64 smaller triangles). This varied, though - close to the equilateral triangle case the error criteria are harder to meet. This observation is heuristic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reading through this discussion, I realized there&#8217;s a missing piece of information.This may not address the concern about the location of the extreme value in a subtriangle via interpolation.</p>
<p>The mesh refinements are done in a shape-regular manner. So each triangle is split into 4 smaller triangles, by adding edges between midpoints of the edges. So all the degrees of freedom from the P2 element get used. </p>
<p>Additionally, because the quadratic elements converge so fast, the mesh size h used for the P2 calculation was typically 8 times larger than that used for the P1 calculation (ie each triangle is subdivided into 64 smaller triangles). This varied, though &#8211; close to the equilateral triangle case the error criteria are harder to meet. This observation is heuristic.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Evans</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2012/06/24/polymath7-research-threads-3-the-hot-spots-conjecture/#comment-9809</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2012 01:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=300#comment-9809</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah ok I see. Thanks for the clarification!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah ok I see. Thanks for the clarification!</p>
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		<title>By: nilimanigam</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2012/06/24/polymath7-research-threads-3-the-hot-spots-conjecture/#comment-9799</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nilimanigam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2012 05:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=300#comment-9799</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chris, you are correct. One would need to know about the derivatives of a generic $p(x,y)$ to conclude something about the location of extrema based on the linear interpolant. 

However, I am relying on the fact that as long as the extrema of both $u_h$ and the interpolations are *somewhere* inside the small triangles (in their appropriate tesselations) at the corner of PQR, then from previous results, the value must be at the boundary. 

If the extreme values lay on nodes associated with other small triangles, we would indeed be in trouble, and would then have to look at the gradients, and subdivide further.

There&#039;s a better way to do all of this, bypassing the interpolation step. This was described somewhere this earlier: since we have the coefficients in the local basis of $u_h$ on each small triangle, we can use these to find the location of the extrema on each little triangle quasi-analytically (analytic formula, value computed in finite precision). 

My code for this was buggy, and I confess I stopped working on it while gearing up for the next term. I can devote some time to fixing this after next week. Or maybe someone else  has code which already does this?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, you are correct. One would need to know about the derivatives of a generic $p(x,y)$ to conclude something about the location of extrema based on the linear interpolant. </p>
<p>However, I am relying on the fact that as long as the extrema of both $u_h$ and the interpolations are *somewhere* inside the small triangles (in their appropriate tesselations) at the corner of PQR, then from previous results, the value must be at the boundary. </p>
<p>If the extreme values lay on nodes associated with other small triangles, we would indeed be in trouble, and would then have to look at the gradients, and subdivide further.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a better way to do all of this, bypassing the interpolation step. This was described somewhere this earlier: since we have the coefficients in the local basis of $u_h$ on each small triangle, we can use these to find the location of the extrema on each little triangle quasi-analytically (analytic formula, value computed in finite precision). </p>
<p>My code for this was buggy, and I confess I stopped working on it while gearing up for the next term. I can devote some time to fixing this after next week. Or maybe someone else  has code which already does this?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Evans</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2012/06/24/polymath7-research-threads-3-the-hot-spots-conjecture/#comment-9798</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2012 04:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=300#comment-9798</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I see... so you are saying if your piecewise 2nd order polynomial is tessellated over M verticies and you wish to locate the maximum of each piece, then you only need to tessellate over 2M verticies before examining the piecewise-linear approximation? I was thinking that the size of the refinement needed for a given piece might depend on the nature of that 2nd-order polynomial piece (and hence be adaptive)... but maybe I was wrong.

My concern is as follows:

Suppose I have a 2nd order polynomial $latex p(x,y)$ in a triangle and then I add one vertex to the center (dividing it into three sub-triangles) and then look at its projection onto the space of piecewise linear functions (interpolated from values assigned to the corners of the triangle and the new vertex in the center), It seems that wouldn&#039;t give enough information to tell whether the maximum of $latex p(x,y)$ was on the boundary. It seems that without knowing some details about the nature of $latex p(x,y)$ the number of sub-triangles I need to accurately locate the maximum could be arbitrarily large.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see&#8230; so you are saying if your piecewise 2nd order polynomial is tessellated over M verticies and you wish to locate the maximum of each piece, then you only need to tessellate over 2M verticies before examining the piecewise-linear approximation? I was thinking that the size of the refinement needed for a given piece might depend on the nature of that 2nd-order polynomial piece (and hence be adaptive)&#8230; but maybe I was wrong.</p>
<p>My concern is as follows:</p>
<p>Suppose I have a 2nd order polynomial <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=p%28x%2Cy%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='p(x,y)' title='p(x,y)' class='latex' /> in a triangle and then I add one vertex to the center (dividing it into three sub-triangles) and then look at its projection onto the space of piecewise linear functions (interpolated from values assigned to the corners of the triangle and the new vertex in the center), It seems that wouldn&#8217;t give enough information to tell whether the maximum of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=p%28x%2Cy%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='p(x,y)' title='p(x,y)' class='latex' /> was on the boundary. It seems that without knowing some details about the nature of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=p%28x%2Cy%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='p(x,y)' title='p(x,y)' class='latex' /> the number of sub-triangles I need to accurately locate the maximum could be arbitrarily large.</p>
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		<title>By: nilimanigam</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2012/06/24/polymath7-research-threads-3-the-hot-spots-conjecture/#comment-9787</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nilimanigam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2012 02:23:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=300#comment-9787</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, I see! Yes, it&#039;s not clear from the notes. 

I refine the tesselations for the P2 approximation until the tolerance is met, or until the number of vertices in the tesselation exceeds a value $M$. This is chosen based on the memory limitations of the cluster I&#039;m working on - the matrices associated with the P2 approximations get big! Once the discrete eigenfunction is computed (usually using far fewer than M vertices because of quadratic convergence), I tesselate so the number of vertices is F=2M, and interpolate by piecewise linears. I tried to put this into the algorithm in  Section 3.1, but should add a clearer explanation. 

At some point I tried to use an adaptive strategy to locate this F. Here is how it worked: I have a function $u_h$. I construct a tesselation with $L$ nodes, and interpolate $u_h$ onto it. I used a standard estimator to adapt the mesh so as to have the interpolant approximate $u_h$ well. However, since $u_h$ is only piecewise smooth, I wasn&#039;t able to use rigorous theorems on the adaptive strategy. So, instead I stayed with a regular refinement as described above, for which I know the interpolation error estimates. 

Clearly all of this could be done better! Ideally there would be some  optimization software in interval arithmetic which one could use instead. But this is an area I&#039;m not familiar with at all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I see! Yes, it&#8217;s not clear from the notes. </p>
<p>I refine the tesselations for the P2 approximation until the tolerance is met, or until the number of vertices in the tesselation exceeds a value $M$. This is chosen based on the memory limitations of the cluster I&#8217;m working on &#8211; the matrices associated with the P2 approximations get big! Once the discrete eigenfunction is computed (usually using far fewer than M vertices because of quadratic convergence), I tesselate so the number of vertices is F=2M, and interpolate by piecewise linears. I tried to put this into the algorithm in  Section 3.1, but should add a clearer explanation. </p>
<p>At some point I tried to use an adaptive strategy to locate this F. Here is how it worked: I have a function $u_h$. I construct a tesselation with $L$ nodes, and interpolate $u_h$ onto it. I used a standard estimator to adapt the mesh so as to have the interpolant approximate $u_h$ well. However, since $u_h$ is only piecewise smooth, I wasn&#8217;t able to use rigorous theorems on the adaptive strategy. So, instead I stayed with a regular refinement as described above, for which I know the interpolation error estimates. </p>
<p>Clearly all of this could be done better! Ideally there would be some  optimization software in interval arithmetic which one could use instead. But this is an area I&#8217;m not familiar with at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Evans</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2012/06/24/polymath7-research-threads-3-the-hot-spots-conjecture/#comment-9786</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Evans]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2012 01:49:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=300#comment-9786</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, my question was (A) as you phrased it. I see the importance of having it be non-adaptive, but I don&#039;t understand how (in Section 2.3) you choose F&gt;&gt;M in a non-adaptive way. Naively it would seem the size of F would depend on what u_h looks like... but I am hardly an expert in these things, so there may be something obvious I am missing :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, my question was (A) as you phrased it. I see the importance of having it be non-adaptive, but I don&#8217;t understand how (in Section 2.3) you choose F&gt;&gt;M in a non-adaptive way. Naively it would seem the size of F would depend on what u_h looks like&#8230; but I am hardly an expert in these things, so there may be something obvious I am missing :)</p>
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		<title>By: nilimanigam</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2012/06/24/polymath7-research-threads-3-the-hot-spots-conjecture/#comment-9783</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nilimanigam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2012 20:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=300#comment-9783</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The issue I faced while using combined Bessel functions+FEM was the following: the Bessel function approximation works rather nicely in polar coordinates, and the FEm approximation works nicely with convex polygonal domains.   I used a decomposition of the triangle into regions that were circular wedges near the corners (where the approximation is via Bessel functions), and the remaininh(which is not convex, and has curvilinear boundaries). While trying to prove things about the ensuing approximation strategy, I was not able to get the desired upper and lower bounds on the eigenvalues. 

The other approach I tried was using combinations of Bessel functions to achieve approximations globally, like Betcke+Trefethen. Unfortunately, there are no proofs of convergence for this method for the Neumann eigenvalue problem on polygonal domains. This would again be problematic from the point of view of validated numerics.

The FEM calculations, together with results on the smooth (not oscillating on a fast scale) nature of the eigenfunctions, show that the extremum is definitely near the the vertices (within the tiny triangles $\tau_h$ within 2 mesh lengths of the corners). Numerically, the difference between the max and min of the eigenfunctions is quite large, and the region in the middle of the triangle has values which are well away from the max and min values.
 The subsampling strategies show numerically that the extrema are at the vertices. 

So your suggestion of using a combination of the FEM approximation away from the corners, and the theoretical argument near the corners, is an excellent one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue I faced while using combined Bessel functions+FEM was the following: the Bessel function approximation works rather nicely in polar coordinates, and the FEm approximation works nicely with convex polygonal domains.   I used a decomposition of the triangle into regions that were circular wedges near the corners (where the approximation is via Bessel functions), and the remaininh(which is not convex, and has curvilinear boundaries). While trying to prove things about the ensuing approximation strategy, I was not able to get the desired upper and lower bounds on the eigenvalues. </p>
<p>The other approach I tried was using combinations of Bessel functions to achieve approximations globally, like Betcke+Trefethen. Unfortunately, there are no proofs of convergence for this method for the Neumann eigenvalue problem on polygonal domains. This would again be problematic from the point of view of validated numerics.</p>
<p>The FEM calculations, together with results on the smooth (not oscillating on a fast scale) nature of the eigenfunctions, show that the extremum is definitely near the the vertices (within the tiny triangles $\tau_h$ within 2 mesh lengths of the corners). Numerically, the difference between the max and min of the eigenfunctions is quite large, and the region in the middle of the triangle has values which are well away from the max and min values.<br />
 The subsampling strategies show numerically that the extrema are at the vertices. </p>
<p>So your suggestion of using a combination of the FEM approximation away from the corners, and the theoretical argument near the corners, is an excellent one.</p>
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		<title>By: Terence Tao</title>
		<link>http://polymathprojects.org/2012/06/24/polymath7-research-threads-3-the-hot-spots-conjecture/#comment-9782</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Terence Tao]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2012 19:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://polymathprojects.org/?p=300#comment-9782</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve finally had a chance to go over the notes, they are indeed very nice.

You mentioned at some previous point that you had considered using Bessel function expansions near the vertices instead of polynomial splines, but here it seems you are using exclusively polynomial splines for the finite element method.  I guess the problem is that it is too hard to match up the Bessel pieces with the polynomial pieces?

One thing about the stability bounds in my notes (involving the quantity X) is that we&#039;ll need bounds on X for all points $latex (\alpha,\beta,\gamma)$ in the parameter space, not just on a finite mesh, before we can compare an arbitrary eigenfunction with an eigenfunction from one of the points on the mesh.  But perhaps we can get some theoretical bounds on the derivative of X with respect to the angle parameters that would take care of this.  (This would require some rigorous bounds on the digamma function etc. In principle, everything in X is real analytic, so if the theoretical bounds on the first derivatives of X are inadequate, perhaps we can then move on to theoretical bounds on second or higher derivatives, and compute lower order derivatives on the mesh numerically and use Taylor expansion to put everything together.)

My guess is that we won&#039;t need to precisely locate the extrema for the finite element approximations, but we just need to show that in regions sufficiently far from the vertices, these approximate eigenfunctions are significantly smaller than the values at the vertices.  For regions near the vertices, I think we can use a theoretical argument instead (I started some work on this at http://michaelnielsen.org/polymath1/index.php?title=Stability_of_eigenfunctions#Another_Sobolev_bound but it is incomplete, I will start looking at this issue again.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve finally had a chance to go over the notes, they are indeed very nice.</p>
<p>You mentioned at some previous point that you had considered using Bessel function expansions near the vertices instead of polynomial splines, but here it seems you are using exclusively polynomial splines for the finite element method.  I guess the problem is that it is too hard to match up the Bessel pieces with the polynomial pieces?</p>
<p>One thing about the stability bounds in my notes (involving the quantity X) is that we&#8217;ll need bounds on X for all points <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%28%5Calpha%2C%5Cbeta%2C%5Cgamma%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=000000&amp;s=0' alt='(&#92;alpha,&#92;beta,&#92;gamma)' title='(&#92;alpha,&#92;beta,&#92;gamma)' class='latex' /> in the parameter space, not just on a finite mesh, before we can compare an arbitrary eigenfunction with an eigenfunction from one of the points on the mesh.  But perhaps we can get some theoretical bounds on the derivative of X with respect to the angle parameters that would take care of this.  (This would require some rigorous bounds on the digamma function etc. In principle, everything in X is real analytic, so if the theoretical bounds on the first derivatives of X are inadequate, perhaps we can then move on to theoretical bounds on second or higher derivatives, and compute lower order derivatives on the mesh numerically and use Taylor expansion to put everything together.)</p>
<p>My guess is that we won&#8217;t need to precisely locate the extrema for the finite element approximations, but we just need to show that in regions sufficiently far from the vertices, these approximate eigenfunctions are significantly smaller than the values at the vertices.  For regions near the vertices, I think we can use a theoretical argument instead (I started some work on this at <a href="http://michaelnielsen.org/polymath1/index.php?title=Stability_of_eigenfunctions#Another_Sobolev_bound" rel="nofollow">http://michaelnielsen.org/polymath1/index.php?title=Stability_of_eigenfunctions#Another_Sobolev_bound</a> but it is incomplete, I will start looking at this issue again.)</p>
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